. >> if you saw a mike huckabee who had greater credibility with the kind of upscale republicans or vice versa, i mean, you could see someone -- >> and i would argue to you, and i think frank would say the same thing, romney did not have to do the things he did on immigration in particular to win. i mean, ultimately, in the end he was running as rick perry, newt gingrich and rick santorum, and he made choices that made things easier in the spring but vastly more complicated in the fall. >> on what ron said, the democrats have become much more assertive on this issue which is a big sea change. on immigration, for example, rahm emanuel himself when he was trying to win democratic majorities counseled centrist democrats, stay away from this issue, because when you bring it up, it rallies conservatives, and puts you on the defensive. what did barack obama do this year? he leaned into the issue. he defied his aides who were saying we're going to lose down scale white voters if you do this, if the african-american president hurts hispanics, it's going to hurt you with white swing voters. he di